What If Your Assumptions Are Wrong with Mikaela Kiner

What if the life you’re waiting to live is being delayed by assumptions that aren’t even true?

In this episode, Melanie sits down with Mikaela Kiner, Founder, CEO, author, and executive coach, to explore a deeply personal and surprisingly universal story.

Mikaela shares how she spent years unconsciously holding herself in place waiting for her kids, her parents, and the “right time” only to realize those constraints were self created. A single conversation shifted everything, leading her to make a bold, decisive move that brought unexpected freedom, clarity, and energy.

Together, they unpack:

• The hidden narratives that keep us stuck
• Why “not knowing” can be more limiting than indecision
• How we unintentionally center others’ needs over our own
• The emotional and psychological power of letting go
• What becomes possible when you question your assumptions

If you’ve been feeling stuck, waiting, or quietly restless, this conversation might be the permission you didn’t know you needed.

To learn more about Mikaela Kiner and Reverb: https://reverbpeople.com/

If this conversation resonated, please follow, rate, and share it with someone who is doing their own inner work.

What’s In Your Neighborhood™ is a nonprofit focused on leaders developing their inner landscapes and building community dedicated to normalizing healing, reducing stigma, and expanding how we think about strength, leadership, and what it means to come home to ourselves.

To learn more, get involved, or support the mission, visit www.whatsinyourneighborhood.org.

Until next time, keep tending to your own neighborhood. It matters more than you know.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to What's in Your Neighborhood, Conversations for the Shame Shifter in all of Us. I'm Melanie Vargas. After decades in executive leadership and coaching high performers, I've learned the real work happens in the parts that we hide. Each episode, I sit with leaders, rebels, and real people who've taken off their masks to explore their inner landscape, shaping how we live and lead. If you're ready for more truth, courage, and authenticity, you're in the right place. So let's go there. What's in your neighborhood? Let me start by introducing today's guest. Today we're walking through Michaela Kiner's Emotional Neighborhood and to give you a little bit of information about her and her background. Michaela is a founder, CEO, and executive coach. Her company, Reverb, helps organizations create healthy, inclusive cultures. Prior to Reverb, Michaela held HR leadership roles at Northwest companies, including Microsoft, Starbucks, and Amazon. She enjoys coaching leaders at all levels and working with mission-driven organizations. Michaela is also the author of Female Fire Brands, Stories and Techniques to Ignite Change, Take Control, and Succeed in the Wlace. Her young adult children are good at challenging the status quo and are a constant source of learning and laughter. Michaela is also a fellow Hudson coach, and I know her through our coaching community. I have admired her for many, many years, long before we actually got to know each other. I could not be more excited about inviting her to join me today on the show. We're also fellow HR professionals, certainly work in the same spaces. And Michaela, I just want to welcome you and thank you again for being here. And I'm excited to co-explore your story.

SPEAKER_01 1:53

Hi, Melanie. Thank you so much for having me here, and thank you for creating this amazing podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:59

It's it's truly an honor. I was completely thrilled that you were willing to join me at the very beginning stages of launching the podcast. So when you think about your emotional neighborhood, what really comes to mind for you?

SPEAKER_01 2:13

First, I think that's just such a great phrase, and it's a very neutral phrase, which allows for, you know, what are the good things in that neighborhood and what are maybe some of the other things in that neighborhood. I know we're gonna get into it as we do some storytelling, but some of the things I think about are um values and boundaries and family, you know, health, the things that are really important to me. And then I think some of the challenging things are um like the limits I put on myself or sometimes wrong assumptions that I make, which I know we can all make. And I think, you know, this the story that I'll share will talk about some kind of wrong assumptions that I was operating under for a very long time, right? Because we don't always question our assumptions. So those are a few things off the top of my head.

SPEAKER_00 3:05

I I love it that you're already digging right into um you know here's the opportunities of this neighborhood, and here are some of the challenge areas that um are part of that. You know, certainly the emotional neighborhood is is my metaphor, but do you have one for your story that resonates for you?

SPEAKER_01 3:22

Well, it's funny that it's neighborhood since we're going to be talking about my home. So it's it's actually very apt. I don't know. I think, you know, as an introvert, um when I even think about what are those emotions or what are those limitations, I I perceive it as all being very much inside of my head because like everything is sort of internalized for us introverts. So that's the picture that I get in my mind.

SPEAKER_00 3:48

Nice. Well, why don't you just tell us a little? Tell us your story.

SPEAKER_01 3:53

Sure, sure. I, you know, this is such a great opportunity for a very um new and current story for me. So um what I wanted to share was this decision that I made very recently to downsize my home. And for context, um my kids are 20 and 23. So I have a 20-year-old away at college in San Diego. I have a 23-year-old who graduated from college and is um pursuing a career as a commercial pilot. Um, but what that means is he has about a thousand more hours of flying that he has to do before he can start his job, and rather than paying, you know, $2,500 a month in rent. So he's with me at home right now during that time. So until about six weeks ago, I was living in the house where my kids grew up, and so it was a uh a big old home. It was a five-bedroom home with a beautiful yard that we inherited um from the previous owners. And um, I'm not a gardener, by the way. At my very best, I weed and water, and at my very worst, uh, I'm I'm totally negligent. So um I knew that the house was too big. You know, even uh with myself and my son, there were rooms that we virtually never used. We had a large basement, you know, it just felt a little bit overwhelming. And then I I mean the yard was beautiful, but I also had this feeling of guilt every time I stepped out into my yard. So I was like, oh, I should be doing more. I should be, you know, maintaining and taking advantage of this incredible garden that I have. Um we'll get into some of the stories later, but I had this mindset that I was like, well, my kids are in their 20s, which means I don't really know where they're going to land. And I have aging parents in their 80s and they're um nearby, they're in Seattle. And I only have one sibling, my brother, who's in the Bay Area. So whatever care, whatever's needed, uh, I'll be there as the support for my parents. So given all of that, I had just kind of been telling myself that it's going to be about 10 years before I decide what I do and whether that would mean downsizing, whether that might mean moving to a location where it doesn't, you know, rain for nine months out of the year. So I had these things, but I I had basically just told myself that I had to put them on hold. And that's where I was. I was just kind of in this, in this limbo of treading water. And then I happened to have a call with my financial advisor, who's a wonderful woman, and I told her, I said, uh, her name's Megan Thompson, I said, Megan, for this hour, you're going to be my financial coach/slash therapist. Um, this was over the summer, and um business had had slowed a little bit. I think sort of the world had slowed at that point in time between the economy, tariffs, world events, AI, like there was this kind of temporary freeze, was how I perceived it. And for my daughter who's in college, her 529 plan was already spent because she had been in private middle and high school. So I was feeling this little bit of a financial crunch, and I, you know, just wasn't sure what to do with that. And so I got on the um call with my advisor, and she said this really interesting thing. You know, she said in our parents' and grandparents' generation, um, the idea was that if if you could, you own a home and you keep that home, and you know, that's your investment, and you're passing that on. And she said, but you know, these days a lot of people more in my age range are deciding, for instance, to sell their homes and rent. She said, because now you have liquidity in your lifetime as opposed to saving the liquidity for the next generation. And I thought, oh, that that was kind of interesting. I that was really kind of news to me. I had never thought of that. And um, then I think it was like the next sentence out of her mouth that changed my life. She said, you know, if you were to sell and decide to rent or sell and decide to downsize and invest the difference, um, we could actually uh choose a year for you to retire. And we I had never chosen a year. I was kind of on this 10-year retirement plan for the last five years and the needle wasn't moving. And that was I like that was just what I needed to hear. I said, uh, you know, Megan, the second I hang up from this call, I'm going to start house hunting, which is exactly what I did. And I looked at rentals, you know, I really wanted to have a bedroom for each kid, even though they're adult-ish, but I still felt that you know they're home for breaks and things like that. So I did look at three-bedroom uh apartments in San Diego and in Seattle, which really there just really aren't many. And I was really particular about the neighborhoods I liked. And then I thought, well, that's okay if I can't rent, I can downsize. And I walk a lot. It's my like the most meditative thing I do. I walk minimum three miles a day in the summer, you know, it's probably five to seven when it's nice out. And I had been walking by this little group of new town homes up the street for me, and I walked by again, and I thought, you know, I'm gonna look at those. Within a few days, I looked at three and I made an offer on the first one I looked at, and um, here I am. So the whole process happened really quickly. And yeah, I know we're gonna get sort of like what are the learnings, but I think for me, I had I had put all these restrictions on myself and I had made all these assumptions, and a lot of it was about what other people need and where other people were gonna be, and none of it was real, and so once I uncovered that, I I got really decisive, and everything just worked so perfectly. I saw a friend yesterday that I hadn't seen in quite a while, and I was telling her this story, and she said, Well, obviously it was meant to be because from the moment I made that decision, everything just everything was smooth, you know, and also my energy just just went way up. Like I don't think I realized how much some of this was waiting on me until I made the change.

SPEAKER_00 9:24

Amazing. Yeah, and I know a little about this story, and you know, even hearing it now fully, I'm envious because I'm still in the house, and I'm like this idea of downsizing and letting go and leaning in is just oh it's so inviting. It's so it feels like so uh so much there's so much freedom in that journey.

SPEAKER_01 9:45

It feels incredibly free. And so the the new home is just a little over half the size of the old home. So I went from you know five full bedrooms with a partially finished and a partially unfinished basement to three bedrooms with no basement. Um it and so it it was uh kind of a Herculean task of getting rid of so many things, but it also felt so good. I mean, son and I did well, I sold a lot of furniture on Facebook Marketplace, and then I lost count of the goodwill trips, you know, just filling up the car. But it felt really good, and I've also noticed living here, and it it doesn't feel small, by the way. It's it's you know, I'm not saying I'm like in some, I'm living out of a closet or anything, but you know, there's less wall space, there's less shelf space, right? So less books, less artwork, less of everything. And I've noticed is that um, because I don't like clutter, and so when I'm just sort of like out and about or walking around or shopping, I don't want anything because I don't want to add anything to my home. I feel like I might see something I admire, and then I'm telling myself, well, there's no place for that. Like I really have what whatever I need, and it feels really good.

SPEAKER_00 11:01

If we were going to deep dive into a defining moment, and there were so many things that you said there were a piece of this chapter. Where was the time that you were feeling maybe undone or exposed or lost? And how did it shift for you?

SPEAKER_01 11:19

Yeah. I think really um this past summer was kind of the harder time. So it was that time, you know, business had slowed a little bit, or frankly, quite a bit. You know, we just had this period that felt like a lull that made us really reflect and do some reinvention around the business, right? Which is it's always a good thing, but then you have to wait to sort of come out of that moment. And um, I think I didn't realize how much financial stress it was causing me. Not not real stress, right? Not in other words, I wasn't short of money in the moment, but it was that uncertainty about the future, right? How long is this going to last? How long is the economy going to be in this upheaval? When will things uh pick pick up and be more normal? And so, you know, uncertainty is really hard on the human brain, as we know. Um, so it was it was hard, and you know, it's interesting. Um, my uncle got married just outside of New York City, so we were in New York in August while a lot of this stuff with the business was going on, and uh I was with both kids, so my daughter and I were sharing a room, and she turned to me the night before the wedding. We had gotten in after the you know family dinner, and I was reading some emails about you know some things that were going on at work, and she just turned around and looked at me and she said, Mom, I've never seen you this stressed. And um, I mean, she lived with me through my divorce. So I got divorced when she was a junior in high school, so that was saying a lot, right? I think I I just felt under this extreme pressure of not knowing when or how things were going to turn around. There were two things I think that kind of helped me uh tip me over the edge. So, one, it was that conversation um that I had with my advisor about, you know, sort of what was possible if I made this change. The other was really interesting. Um, I had thought that maybe one of my kids might want the house in the future because I don't really know how young people are going to afford housing in Seattle, you know, just given the way that things are. And um, if either one of them, I had assumed my son because he lives in the area, he likes the area, his girlfriend, you know, is from this area. My daughter's in San Diego and has already told me she isn't coming back anytime soon because she likes the sun. So this other thought I had was that I was somehow holding on to the house for the future. You know, maybe my son would want to buy it, or I would build out an Airbnb in the basement. I don't know. I I had made up all these things, and my kids of their own volition one night somehow had this talk about the house. And my daughter said, you know, we were talking and neither one of us wants this house. And I was like, really? And she goes, yeah. And she, my son is Simon. She said, Yeah, Simon, and he said no. And so then I thought, again, what what do I think? You know, I think I'm like holding on to this house, I'm doing some kind of favor for my son who doesn't want it. So, you know, I think it was just freeing. It was um, there was like the permission to move on. I think the one other thing I had told myself, so my my son will be here probably about a year while he uh gets these flight hours, and I didn't want to disrupt him. You know, I thought, well, he's gonna have to move in a year anyway for this job that he has lined up, so I should wait. So when I saw the house and decided I wanted to make an offer, and he didn't nobody knew I was looking because it was in a you know a matter of days. I went home and I told him, and I was kind of apologetic, you know, like I saw this house, and how would you feel if we move? Well, he was excited, he took it as an opportunity also to purge stuff and kind of have a fresh start. Uh also it was incredibly helpful having him, as you might imagine. And so I was like, oh, I'm actually really glad I decided to do this while he was still here with me.

SPEAKER_00 15:08

Um I'm curious, you mentioned assumptions when you were telling your story. Are these some of the assumptions you were talking about?

SPEAKER_01 15:15

So many, yeah. So I think I've I've never really listed them all out, but um, one of the kids might want the house, so I should hang on to it for them. That was one. I don't want to disrupt my son by moving, that was one. And then this really big one I had about well, I need to see where my kids land and how my parents do, as if uh somehow that was uh tying me down. But I did, I had given I kept saying it's you know, in in 10 years I'll do something because then I'll know what how everyone is and where everyone is, which it's ridiculous. I mean, there they'll be how they are and where they are, regardless of where I am, right? I mean, there was just no practical reason uh for me to be doing that and trying to wait it out.

SPEAKER_00 16:00

So many little nuggets of gold in there about the assumptions we make and how sometimes those narratives kind of drive our behavior and keep us stuck in a way that because we haven't validated them anywhere. They're all being cooked up in our heads.

SPEAKER_01 16:14

Very yeah, very much. And I it it I think I was really stuck again without um I wouldn't have known, you know, if if someone had said, Oh, is anything bothering you on your mind? I I would not have said this. I think I had put it so far aside because of those assumptions that you know I wasn't reflecting on it at all. But yet it was it was clear when I made the choice that it was really uh weighing me down, that it was actually pretty heavy.

SPEAKER_00 16:40

Mm-hmm. It does feel like you had a periods of where you had awakenings or uh like a moment of clarity like that conversation that you had with your financial advisor. Are there other pieces like that that felt important to this story in terms of like big emotions or parts of you that during that time that helped you make that shift?

SPEAKER_01 17:02

Mm-hmm. Yeah, you know, I think um, and this is still with me. So I'm from Seattle. I grew up in Seattle. You know, my parents are in the house on Capitol Hill where I grew up, and I've spent, I spent a lot of time away, but I've spent much of my life here. But I I did reach the decision, maybe just in the past year, that I I really don't think I want to retire here. The weather does not suit me. I love to be outside and I love to walk. Like I said, I just I would walk all day if I could, but I am a very fair weather person when it comes to the outdoors. And so I think I had to do this chunking out of like this isn't my last step, you know, this isn't permanent. I don't plan to be here for 30 years necessarily, but that that that's also okay, right? I can make a decision now, I can make a different decision later. I also, you know, for anyone who's bought or sold a home, it is such a stressful process, you know, just the uncertainty, the transition, um, not knowing if you're getting it. And when we bought the last house, which was in 2012, I had said I was never gonna buy or sell another house. And so I had to break my rule, but for very good reason. You know, and I knew I mean I had I had reached a point where I knew that I wasn't gonna stick with that. But um, you know, moving is a lot. And I just moved up the street. I literally moved maybe a quarter mile north up my same side street. I did not go far. But all the logistics of it, uh, it's just a lot of work.

SPEAKER_00 18:38

Yeah. I do feel like all humans will place those rules or expectations on ourselves, and then we hold ourselves to those standards or rules. Nobody external has put those things on us. And so that alone is a moment of clarity where you recognized, oh, I have this rule that I put on myself, but it's okay if I change my mind.

SPEAKER_01 18:59

Yeah, it it is it's so true. And uh, you know, I this comes up a lot in coaching, right? Where people place expectations or they talk about these expectations or things they perceive as failures, and you're kind of saying, Well, is that like are other people telling you that you failed, or you're just telling yourself, which doesn't necessarily make it easier to undo, right? I mean, these are things that we've lived with and we have these thoughts and beliefs for some reason, right? It served us at one point, or it's protective, or whatever the case may be. But yeah, it it's it's very interesting to kind of peel them back and uncover them and realize, yeah, how to what extent you're living according to these, you know, false assumptions or wrong beliefs or whatever the case may be.

SPEAKER_00 19:48

And I mean, even as coaches, we, you know, we can fall into the trap. We're coaching people on these things, and we ourselves are doing some of this to ourselves. So it's great that you recognize that. What do you think you really? I mean, you've touched on things already, but if you were gonna articulate things that you learned about yourself through this whole experience, what are those, what are those things?

SPEAKER_01 20:11

Mm-hmm. I think it was really interesting that I was looking at my close family members as on these sort of moving parts. And somehow it was like I saw myself like, oh, I'm supposed to be, you know, the steady state in the midst of everyone else moving and doing their thing, and I should be, I should wait. I mean, that's a very actually bizarre assumption to be making, again, not based on pressure, you know, from anybody else. So that was interesting. I just thought, yeah, why do I feel and it's not beholden because it wasn't a negative sense. It didn't, it wasn't an obligation. It was almost like I just accepted it as a fact, but again, that I made up uh myself in my own head. I think that was really interesting. Like I said, it was it was very freeing to move, but I think because I had accepted this current state, I I I didn't really allow for the fact that it was causing me stress, right? It was like I kind of buried that because I just I just thought, well, this is the way it is, right? I'm not gonna think about the fact that the house is too big, I'm not gonna think about the fact that this yard is really overwhelming because it was almost like, well, but there's no point because this is just how it is, and it's just gonna be like this for the next 10 years. So I don't know, it's like I guess yeah, we can really fool ourselves into thinking these things are real.

SPEAKER_00 21:37

Yeah, um, it's this we're hanging on to you, you touched on it earlier when you were talking about you didn't use the word survival mechanism, but these things that are ingrained in us from early on in our lives that really served us. And then now we oftentimes don't even see it in our day to day lives that we just keep doing it or it keeps us stuck. You know, some of this thinking or some of the use that assumptions and Narratives that run behind the it's like an operating system that just kind of plays over and over again.

SPEAKER_01 22:06

Yeah, it's so true. You know, I was in a course with uh the Hudson Institute the other day, a virtual course, and we spent some time on saboteurs. So yeah, yet another word, right, for these things, these ways that we kind of self-sabotage without even realizing it.

SPEAKER_00 22:22

Yeah, it's true. I and I love, I'm a fan of Shazard's work in that area with the positive intelligence tool. And it's it's such a great tool to give some insight to people, to even just to have the label for them, especially in those periods. You mentioned it for those of us that run our own businesses, we have these peaks and valleys. And when you're in the valley, it's really hard to remember. Oh, yeah, the peaks right around the corner. But when you're in the valley, sometimes you will even tell yourself a narrative there that the valley's permanent. The valley has no out. We're never going back up. Um and how that can sometimes drive those fear periods can drive interesting thoughts and actions and behaviors.

unknown 23:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:04

Yeah, I think it can feel very permanent, right? When you don't see the light at the end of the tunnel, or when there isn't a clear line of sight to, okay, you know, if we just make this change, right? Or if we just start talking to these people or doing work in this way. Um yeah, I think there was a period of uncertainty like that, you know, and then and then I think we the team rallied ourselves, you know, to work on, like I said, some solutions, some reinvention. But um, it is scary. And I think as a business owner, you know, there's um the revenue piece, but there's also uh a lifestyle piece of I really like working for myself, you know. And so this thought of am I gonna have to go out after 10 years and get a corporate job and work for someone and you know, deal with the workplace politics and and some of these things, you know, that might be less desirable. Um yeah, I I didn't really enjoy thinking about like I did think that. I did wonder, you know, might enjoy a a day job. Um yeah, so it we can get kind of dark, I think, when when things aren't looking as good.

SPEAKER_00 24:15

It does feel that in those moments, like I call it when we're in that messy middle, you were able to identify that you were there in some way and and also be able to make the shifts necessary to pull yourself through. Whereas oftentimes people get so stuck in the way they're thinking, those pivots that you mentioned, whether it's the business or like the pivot that you made to kind of make that recognition with your home, those are so useful to be able to see that and be able to be able to make that shift. And so many people don't. We stay stuck, you know, we stay stuck in whatever it is that we're experiencing or thinking.

SPEAKER_01 24:52

Yeah, well, and I think it's such a great reminder of how you can go from the low to the high and remembering that, right? When you're in those low points. And I I do have that I subscribe to that belief of you know, everything happens for a reason. And so I could tell myself that intellectually, you know, when things were hard, but it was really hard to feel like, okay, one day soon the things are going to be really different. The other part actually, so why I thought of this story for our conversation today was because kind of like you, where you said, Oh, I'm sort of jealous, you know, maybe you want to downsize soon. A number of uh women in particular that I was talking to said that to me and kind of said, Oh, I've been on the fence or we've been thinking about it. And I didn't know, you know, I don't know. I guess I didn't know because I haven't talked to people about this, so I didn't know that it was a place where other people also get stuck and are trying to, you know, figure out timing, and it can be hard, right? You have like emotional attachment to the home or the things in the home. It's funny, my daughters, my daughter was away at school for all of this, and she was feeling a little bit sentimental, you know, and she said, Mom, you know, I'm gonna come home for the holidays to a house that I've never seen and not to my childhood home. And I was kind of like, ouch, yeah, but I'm like doing this for all of us, you know. And then at one point she just said, Aren't you weren't you sentimental at all? Because I think I I got to the excitement really quickly, but also I spent a lot of time, frankly, backing up the house and going through every single thing we owned. And that was how I told her I said, you know, honey, yeah, when I was going through, you know, boxes of like baby photo albums or childhood books. I mean, yes, like of course I was sentimental and I was pausing and having a lot of memories, but then I'm also really execution-oriented. So then I was just like, oh my gosh, I need to get out of there, I need to get into here, you know, I need to unpack and make this line. But I thought it was really interesting that she asked and wanted to know. And and and frankly, that she had such a strong attachment to the house because the kids actually grew up in three homes because we were in Seattle. When my kids were four and seven, we moved on assignment to India for three years, and then when they were seven and ten, we moved into the home that I just sold. So it was also interesting, it was kind of like heartwarming for me to hear her referring to this one as her childhood home. She didn't just have one home like I did, but yeah, she really had that strong connection to it. But she's gonna guilt trip me. She's coming home next week for Thanksgiving, and I'm gonna hear it. Of course.

SPEAKER_00 27:35

You'd be getting that regardless of what decision you're making in your life. Are there any other surprises that that are worth noting? Let's see. You mentioned earlier the the freedom part of it. Was that a surprise?

SPEAKER_01 27:53

Yeah, I think um how freeing and how simple it feels. And I think the both smaller and you know less stuff. I think the stuff, um, and I don't consider myself, I don't know. I'm I mean, I probably have a normal amount of stuff for an American person my age. You know, I know Americans we like our stuff, but I don't have big collections of anything. But um I still had to get rid of a lot and chose to get rid of a lot, you know. I I got rid of so many books. I mean, I'm a reader, but I really don't reread anything. And so my books went from covering probably two or three bookcases to, I don't know, my hands are about two and a half feet apart. Like this is how many books I have now on one little shelf in my bedroom, just stuff that had some sentimental value to me. Um, so the simplicity for sure. You know, it was interesting actually was I really didn't want to leave my neighborhood. Um, I only looked at two neighborhoods in Seattle. I like my um, well, I like the part of town, but it was also like I have my yoga studio that I like to go to, and I have where I do Pilates, and I have the places that I like to walk. And yeah, I mean, there are many great neighborhoods in Seattle, but I was really not open to any of them. Um, and then it was interesting to me, you know. My daughter's in San Diego, and every time I visit, she always says, Mom, I know you're gonna move here. I mean, I I I love it. I do. I really love it. I always stay in the same neighborhood when I'm there. I stay in Airbnb, I have my cafe that I go to. Um, and I did really briefly look at San Diego. I think just with the business, I don't think it's the right time for me not to live in Seattle. I think I'd have to be up here a lot. Um, so you know, it it doesn't make that a good destination. But I I haven't really had a retirement destination, but if if I had to name one, it probably would be San Diego. So I think that became more clear as well.

SPEAKER_00 29:55

Curious, you mentioned it earlier with that you've talked to so many women, myself included, that are envious that you've taken this step and how many people are there and they're for years trying to do what you're what you just did. And and so I'm so glad you chose this area to dive into. Is there anything that you feel like our listeners need to hear that we haven't shared?

SPEAKER_01 30:21

Yeah, you know, I mean, the one thing I was thinking was sort of either if you're in the place where I was where you don't even know that this is a an issue to be working on, or if you're in that time of indecision, was sort of this combination of both trust your gut and question your assumptions. Like if you can somehow get at that mix of things, you know, through a conversation with either your partner, you know, if there's someone that you're making the decision jointly, or you know, coach therapist, whomever. But it was like, even though I was in this almost like not knowing that I had this as a problem space, once it got clear, I became really decisive. Um, and I I feel like other people would too, right? Like that was sort of how when and how I knew that it was right for me. And so, yeah, I would say, you know, listen, listen to yourself, but not just the voices, right? Maybe listen to the the gut instincts, the feelings, the energy around, like, do you get excited, you know, when you think about downsizing? You know, it's really funny too, is um this whole term of downsizing. So I was writing to a friend, she's American, but she lives in Costa Rica, and we were just messaging back and forth, and she said, How's it going? And I said, Yeah, I'm downsizing. And she wrote back and she said, What is downsizing? And I was like, Oh, is this just an American thing? Because she's been away for a long time. But it was really interesting to me, right, that this is sort of a a theme in our lives, especially for probably for people, you know, who have families and kids moving away. It was just really interesting to me that she had no idea what that even meant.

SPEAKER_00 32:03

Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I was feeling some of that during the time that you were presenting, like getting rid of your stuff. And even the stuff that we're so attached to the things, right? And when you think about that freedom, just even that insight alone is worth sharing that when we're clinging on to these things, questioning why are we clean, you know, why are we hanging on to these things? Yeah, these physical things that really, you know, in the hindsight.

SPEAKER_01 32:30

Yeah, I do think it's sort of uniquely American. But um, yeah, I mean, it's a I there are memories and there is sentimentality, but I think the that's like a fraction of what we own. That was how I felt. Like, yes, I love books, and I probably kept 1% of my books. You know, the rest were just, I don't know, like, what are they doing? I mean, they're just sitting on the shelf reminding me that I read that book once upon a time. Like, that is not useful. And I would love for someone else to, you know, buy and enjoy that book, just like someone else can buy and enjoy my old home, you know, somebody who is in that in the phase of life that they need and want that.

SPEAKER_00 33:15

That's a beautiful message that you know, letting go of something is somebody else's gift, right? And then you're leaning into like what your uh inspired future is and this wonderful new space that you're in. And it is, I think what you said about downsizing is so interesting. This idea of like the fact that maybe it is very American that we feel like we're downsizing. And are we really downsizing? Um, the term itself is uh interesting. I never would have thought about that before you mentioned it.

SPEAKER_01 33:48

Yeah, it it is. I I actually it made me sort of want to research it and think, you know, do do people in other cultures even to do this? Is this a thing, or is this just us? Because I don't know, it's funny. You know, I grew up in a big old home and I bought a big old home. I mean, that was what I knew, and that was what to me had charm and character, and it was kind of like just before the era of the tiny home. But over the years I have thought, yeah, like had I known differently, I don't know. I mean, I loved the house and it was a wonderful house. I just don't know that I ever needed such a big house, but it was just what I knew.

SPEAKER_00 34:29

Mm-hmm. Yeah, for sure. And so when you think about where you are now in this amazing space that you're in of freedom, it looks like freedom to me anyway. That's my label. How would you describe it? I mean, how would you describe where you are, like fully integrated into this life that you have now and your downsized life, which you know it now seems silly to say.

SPEAKER_01 34:53

Yeah, um, it's funny. I mean, I think even visually, well, first of all, I've never lived in a new home. Like this was a brand new home that I'm the first person to live in it. So it was very unique to me. And as you can see, it's very like bright white, it's sort of crisp and clean, and and with a lot of big windows and a lot of light. You know what's funny is um in building a new construction, it's like they just figured out what people need and want, right? And so they did a really good job. Like all the windows. I have a walk-in closet that I could literally move my desk in and work from if I had to, because it's that spacious, you know. But I think that um there is this kind of crisp, clean, light and bright feeling about the home that I think is sort of like its own metaphor, you know, just uh yeah, how I feel. And it's funny, um, so three days after we moved, my son went on a three-week trip to Japan. So I just kept the door of his bedroom shut because it was total chaos, but everything else, you know, I unpacked and I set up, and I'm I'm very tidy. I don't like a lot of clutter. And so while he was away, the house was just like stick and stand and nothing on the surfaces. And it's funny, we don't have an office right now, and so some of the team events we do at my house, and the team was over a couple times, and they were like, Oh, it's really you know clean in here, it's really neat. And I was like, Oh yeah, but wait until my son gets back. So he and his girlfriend got back from Japan, and it was a day when I was working, so I was up here, and when I finally went downstairs, their bags were open, and they had like pulled out all the gifts they brought, and she was passed out on the couch. It was like a bomb had gone off, but uh also in a really good way, like they make it really homey, you know, and so it looks night and day different now that my son is back, and I'm trying to just like keep the tidiness in my areas that I need to be sane, but also not pick on him about you know, because it's his house too, and he does have a very different aesthetic. So it's funny, it's already been a very different house in you know the six or so weeks that I've been here, but and both are good, they're just different.

SPEAKER_00 37:13

Yeah. Important thing to note that you know, this image of this little sanctuary that you built, and then once your son came back into it, it's like it it's a it's messier, but it's still there's lots of love there, and um, it feels right to you.

SPEAKER_01 37:27

Yeah, and I love um his girlfriend doesn't live here by the way, they're just always together at one of the one of the two houses. Um, and it's super fun, and I love having them around. And I also know like one day they'll be gone and it'll be just me and my little, you know, pristine house, and they won't be here anymore. So I also I just try to soak it up, you know, when they're around because it's really, it's really fun, it's really special when they're here.

SPEAKER_00 37:52

Some of the key messages that I heard from you today, or that I'm taking away, that I think so many of our listeners will also be taking away around the ideas that you shared around assumptions and the the assumptions that we make and that we stick with in our own head, and that we don't say them out loud or seek to validate those assumptions. And so there's a real message for hope on people that are feeling stuck in whatever it is, whether it's you know, wanting to downsize or make a change in their life or change a career or, you know, whatever it is, that those assumptions that drive our behavior and that we sit silently in those in our own head oftentimes. And even that story you told about how when you went and talked to your kids that you had hung on to this assumption that you know they wanted to stay in the house and that that was yours and not theirs. And then we even place those on other people sometimes in terms of their expectations. Yeah. Is there anything else um that we didn't touch on that you feel like you want to share?

SPEAKER_01 38:56

I think on that point that you just made, it's funny, as you said, you know, as coaches, we can have uh questions and techniques that we're really good at using with others, and then uh we do not use them on ourselves. But there's a question, you know, what else might be true? That's a really good probing if you can articulate your assumptions and then ask yourself, like, how true are these, and what else might be true, and you know, start to uncover what is real and not. And then it also just made me, I kept thinking of that phrase, um, perception is reality, right? Because even you notice this so many times, like our perception or beliefs form our reality, and it might be based on something that is false, you know, but we don't notice that. And so it does, you know, it limits our own actions and behaviors. No, I think this was really fun. It was um it's interesting for me to be able to reflect on like this change and this phase of life, of sort of like what what other meaning comes along with that, because it is a these are big transitions, right? For for those who have kids for sure. Empty nest, which I always say, I hate that phrase, but empty nest is a big one and very emotional. And then I think this this idea of downsizing, if you have been really rooted somewhere for a long time, um, can be big and and could be hard. You know, I think I'm fortunate that it's been uh it's been really fun. You know, it's just been a really positive experience for me.

SPEAKER_00 40:24

And I think you said this too, that when you made the decision, once you got to that place of acceptance, then it was like very smooth sailing from there. It was the acceptance piece, getting to that. Would you agree with that?

SPEAKER_01 40:36

I would agree. And it's there, it's like something comes before that of even knowing, you know, is this something, should I be thinking about this? Or should I be acting, you know, is is this a question in my mind, which I think it took me so long to realize that this is actually a question that needs to be asked. You know, so when you said some people sit in indecision, I think I sat in, I didn't even know to be asking the question. But then once I asked it, I was ahead because I've been sort of ignoring it for so long.

SPEAKER_00 41:07

And one more thing I want to highlight too is this idea of not knowing. And when we're when we're in that phase, I forget your exact words around when you weren't sure what you were gonna do and being okay to sit there in the the discomfort of not knowing. I don't think you labeled it not knowing. That's maybe my words, but we don't like to be there. We don't like to be in that in-between phase of like, I'm here, but I I want to go here, and I'm not sure what the answer is. And so we oftentimes either avoid the questions or the truth, or we move to something else that feels more comfortable.

SPEAKER_01 41:47

Yeah, the it's that limbo. Which is hard for the brain. I mean, I just you know, I think um humans love certainty and predictability, and we're not getting much of that in our world today. And so then I'm sure we cling to it where we can in our own lives because it's it's comfortable, right? And we want to feel in control.

SPEAKER_00 42:10

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Thank you so much for your time today. I think everyone's gonna learn a lot, and it certainly helped me to walk along your story and thanks for jumping right into your emotional and uh it it is not metaphorical because you're you're in a new neighborhood. You're in the same neighborhood, you're just in a beautiful new space in the same neighborhood. So thank you so much for that.

SPEAKER_01 42:35

Oh, it's my pleasure. Thank you, Melanie, and just yeah, thank you again for opening up these conversations. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 42:41

Thank you. Thank you for joining us today. As you head back in your day, we invite you to notice what's happening in your own neighborhood, at work, at home, or inside yourself. Change often starts close to home. And sometimes the smallest shift in awareness can create the biggest ripple. If something in today's conversation stayed with you, we'd love for you to carry it forward and share it with someone else who might need it too. And if you're finding value in these conversations, it would mean a lot to us if you subscribed and left a review. We're just getting started, and your support really helps us grow the community. Until next time, take care of yourself and each other.